You Have a Story to Tell – with Frank Ball

Frank Ball is a master storyteller. The director of the North Texas Christian Writers Conference and founder of Story Help Groups, Frank has an extensive career as a ghostwriter, copy editor, graphic designer, and self-publisher. Today, Chris and Gena talk to Frank about his creative approach to storytelling – the SCOOP method, and how you, yes YOU, have a story to tell!

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Links:

• Writing Moments – Write with us and give your writing momentum!
• Frank Ball

Episode 33 Transcription:

[00:00:12].960] - Speaker 1


[00:00:13].770] - Gena
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Writing Momentum podcast. We're so glad you're here, Chris. We are excited because we are doing something special today. What are we doing?

[00:00:25].540] - Chris
Well, we have Frank Ball back on the program. How are you doing today, Frank?

[00:00:29].990] - Frank
I'm doing great. It's fun.

[00:00:32].510] - Chris
We love it when we have Frank Ball here. Frank was here just a short while ago, and we were talking about writing for the inspirational market. And if you haven't listened to that episode, please go back and listen to it. I think you'll find it just a really good episode where we talk about why you might want to write for the inspirational market, what it's like, the kind of things it's looking for, and even some mistakes you can make when you go into it.

[00:00:58].520] - Gena
Well, avoid avoid mistakes you can avoid for the inspirational market. Yeah. And how you can find some great some opportunities. So that is it was it was really good informational and just inspiring broadcast. So be sure to check that one out. Today, though, we're talking about something a little bit different. We are talking about what, Chris?

[00:01:22].450] - Chris
We're going to talk with Frank about storytelling, because Frank has been writing for years. He has led writers conferences. He's worked, he created story help groups, which helps people find the stories that are inside them and then tell those stories in written format. Right. And that, I think, is worth talking about because I've heard you talk about this before, so I'm a little spoiled because I just love hearing about it every time. Okay. You believe, Frank, that everyone has a story to tell, right?

[00:01:56].540] - Frank
I have no doubt about it.

[00:01:59].030] - Chris
What does that mean? What does that mean?

[00:02:02].390] - Frank
Well, the question always is, is there a difference between fiction or nonfiction? When it comes to a story, it's the same difference. Either it really happened or it didn't actually happen. But they all have to be believable. That's the crucial part of any story. A story has to pull people into an experience where people want to know what's going to happen. It's different from news. News is boring. News puts you to sleep because it just tells what happened. But a story grabs attention, or at least it should. So I've spent a lot of time researching and looking for what are the crucial elements that make story, what makes it captivate. Did a lot of study, a lot of reading on that.

[00:02:53].840] - Chris
Yeah. So when you say it works, it's both fiction and nonfiction. Like, I can see how if you're writing a fiction book, for instance, you'd have to have all the character transformation, that sort of thing. You're telling that story of that character. But what if you want to do a nonfiction story, like a memoir on your life, and you don't feel like you've had, like, some huge transformation or some huge thing happened to you that you could talk about? Are you just not looking hard enough? Or is it possible that you need to look elsewhere?

[00:03:28].550] - Frank
If it's a story of any value, you learn something. You experience the change. If you can't identify a change, you don't have a story. I wrote a book for ghost wrote a book for a ministry one time in which the author said, well, I've got this cute little story, but I can't figure out how I changed from the experience. And I told him, well, you've only got one of two choices. You either leave the story out or you figure out how you changed. Because without a change in your character, in your story, guess what happens to your reader? Nothing.

[00:04:08].930] - Chris
It's like reading the news. Fall asleep.

[00:04:11].170] - Frank
That's exactly right. And so this is crucial. The story is always in the struggle. And so many times, inspirational writers, especially, they want to jump to the answer. They want to jump to the conclusion. And that's not where the story is. That's the climax at the end. The story is in a succession of struggles in which, at each stage, we see a character change.

[00:04:41].210] - Gena
Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[00:04:42].580] - Frank
I'm sorry. The movie The Ultimate Gift is an excellent movie that shows character change because it begins with this grandson named Jason Stevens who hadn't worked in the days of his life, and he doesn't care about anybody. And then he goes through these stages of assignments in which you see him change to where helping people is all that matters to him, and the money doesn't matter to him. What a transformation. But it is a progression of transformations. So that's what we need to see in a short story that might just be one experience and one transformation, where in a book, it is a sequence of scenes that do the same thing, that build to a climax.

[00:05:34].590] - Chris
It sounds like you're talking about character arc, but can you have that kind of character arc in a nonfiction story where, like, let's say you're writing a business book? Can you have a character arc in that sort of thing?

[00:05:46].410] - Frank
In a way you can. The principles still apply. Okay, let's talk about a sermon.

[00:05:51].810] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:05:52].790] - Frank
Do you know that if preachers would always begin their message with a problem that we don't know how to solve, we have people on the edge of their seats wanting to know what the answer is?

[00:06:03].430] - Chris
That's right. You don't want to wait until you hear the conclusion, right?

[00:06:06].530] - Frank
No. People don't attend church to just get a bunch of answers. They want to know how to get there. And so story is crucial. I work with a writer one time who's a psychologist well, degreed psychologist. She wanted to write a book on parenting, so she sought my advice, okay, how do I do this? How do I show people the rights and wrongs of parenting? And I smiled and I said, well, do you want people to read it? Which is kind of a no brainer, of course. And she said, well, sure, in that case, you've got to tell stories because that sets up the problem. She did it best parenting book I ever read because you read the scenario. And I said, boy, I had that problem with my kids and I really didn't know how to handle it. I did the best I knew how. But it sets up you're wanting to know the answer because you've presented the problem and you've pictured the struggle. So yes, it's applicable in all kinds of nonfiction.

[00:07:21].970] - Gena
As you're talking, I'm thinking about conversations that we've had with other writers and you in between, or earlier, we were talking about Rene Gutteridge and she was on not long ago, she was on with our Writing Moments, which is our online writing community that we have. And she was talking about finding the truth in writing, finding that truth. And so as you're talking, I'm thinking, one, I think the story resonates with us as individuals because one, it eliminates the truth of the humanity in all of us, what we're dealing with. It touches our emotions and so it draws us in. And again, because we understand that struggle, we are drawn to it because it's a personal struggle that we can identify with. So it touches on that truth and on the emotions. It sounds like to me, as you're talking, that's what I'm thinking about or some of these other conversations that we've had.

[00:08:28].310] - Chris
It's funny. I was just helping an author format their book. And this is someone who speaks in a lot of churches and she was writing a book on marriage. And she had written this book, had a lot of really great points in it. And she told me, she said it was so hard to write because I realized after I wrote the whole thing, I hardly had any stories in it. And someone told me I should probably put some stories in so people will actually read it. She went through and redid the whole thing. Right?

[00:08:58].330] - Frank
That is wonderful.

[00:09:00].240] - Gena
Yeah, well, we've heard that before. We've heard that from people where they ask why just want to teach the truth. I don't want to fill it with a bunch of fluff. And the fluff is the stories. And in their mind and what we have talked to them about is the stories are where you really grab the reader. But also those stories often are where people will learn the lesson too. There are those people who will learn it through those stories as much as there's other people who will learn it through the logic lesson.

[00:09:41].070] - Frank
Well, maybe you have heard the saying, experience is the best teacher. I will argue that it's the only teacher that we have not really learned something until we have in some way experienced it. Okay, mama said the stove was hot and I didn't touch the stove. But if I didn't, I had a very clear vision of what would happen if I did.

[00:10:08].230] - Gena
Right.

[00:10:08].880] - Frank
That's applying an experience to the lesson. And so this is what story does. Story takes readers through an experience. Now, who hasn't heard that we ought to be forgiving? Yeah, but that message won't sell. But give me a story that shows the consequence of unforgiveness so that my character learned to be forgiving. Now I've got it. And you don't have to tell me to be forgiving because I've learned it. That's the difference between just giving us information that we hold in our mind and story touches our hearts.

[00:10:49].090] - Gena
Right. That's really good.

[00:10:50].780] - Chris
So now you have, I guess I would call it a technique to writing a captivating story. And it's called Scoop. And I think did you come up with this, Frank?

[00:11:03].390] - Frank
It's my acronym. Yes, I came up with it because I just thought it would be cool because what writer doesn't want the scoop? And so I did a lot of research. I read all of Robert McKee's book story. I'm looking for these crucial elements that all stories must have. And you've got a situation. That's the S for Scoop. You've got a situation. And all that you need to know is where are you in place and time. That's all your situation has to tell you. Because we're not going to give landscape and weather. That's old school writing. That doesn't work for a cinematic audience today because we're used to seeing movies that take us right into the scene and into the action, and that's what we want. So we've got a situation, and then the C word and Scoop is a character. Without a character, we don't have anybody to care for. There must be a character. And then the character must have the old word objective. Because without the character having an objective, the reader in the story has no objective. Do you get to see how that connection works? You want to engage the reader, and you do that by identifying with the point of view character who wants something.

[00:12:27].490] - Frank
So you've got to identify, what does a character want in this particular scene? There's got to be something, whatever that character wants that's important, or your reader doesn't want anything. But now there's another O word that is the obstacle. And the obstacle is as crucial as the objective. You know what happens if we don't have an obstacle?

[00:12:56].550] - Frank
We know what happens. My character has an objective and there's no obstacle. Guess what? It happens. No, there have to be obstacles. So you identify the obstacle. What obstacles are going to take place in this particular scene? It applies to fiction or nonfiction. Find the obstacles. So many times in nonfiction, we know how things are going to turn out. And so we just look for that being, oh, well, I knew that. No, we didn't. When we were struggling, we didn't know what was going to happen, and we were worried sick, and we thought, well, what if this happens? And what if that happens? That's how your story has to unfold. These obstacles that you imagined back then that didn't happen, could have happened, and then what happens if they did? That makes stories. So you've got an objective, you've got an obstacle, and then the P word in scope is the plight, meaning what this character wants has benefits and consequences. If she gets it, it's going to be wonderful. We can go on to the next scene, the next chapter, but if she doesn't get it, then there are consequences. So we're not just talking about a walk around the park, unless we understand that this is a dangerous park because she's having to go inside the fence at the zoo.

[00:14:22].770] - Frank
Now, that's plight. That's saying there's consequence. So those five elements make wonderful back cover copy for a book. If you identify what those elements are, if you know the situation, the character, the objective, the obstacle and the plight, you want to read the book, what's going to happen? Because we don't know. So then within each scene and finally at the end of the book, there's the continuing phrase after scoop, which is scoop it up. And the it stands for the insight and transformation in that particular scene. What did my character learn and how did my character change? Because the next chapter or the next book or the next scene is going to build on that. So now there is action and reaction and evaluation. There is a revised goal with revised consequences, with new obstacles, because what worked still has problems. If I won the lottery and had $10 million, now I've got problems. Can we understand how it works? So any success is not really a success. There's insight, there's transformation, and then finally there's the up that stands for unresolved problem. There is the next thing that leads to whatever's going to happen next.

[00:15:57].750] - Frank
And so this creates an excellent opportunity between chapters for a subtle cliffhanger, because we don't know, okay, what's going to happen. Now, you can't be obvious with that. Everybody has seen cliffhangers, and that's just a literary device. Big deal. But if you really understand and make this a real event, there's this unresolved problem that just falls in naturally, and you want to find out what's next. So consequently, I wrote a novel about the man born blind that Jesus told to go wash in the pool of Siloam. Every one of those chapters is written under this simplest of all outlines. It really is, because if I just know those seven things, that's all I've got to know. And I begin a chapter with my character facing an obstacle and not knowing what's going to happen. And then as I write it, the wonderful thrill in writing stories like this is being surprised at what happens.

[00:17:01].410] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:17:02].240] - Frank
Because it becomes character driven, not plot driven. If I'm plot driven, I'm making the character fit what I want to happen, but it's much more dynamic and surprising to the reader if I'm the writer and I'm surprised at how it turned out, guess what's going to happen to the reader?

[00:17:23].050] - Gena
Right.

[00:17:24].390] - Frank
And so I can't believe he did that. I wasn't expecting that, but it happened because it's true with my character at that particular scene. Now, later on, my character might act differently, but under the circumstances, he decides, no, I'm not going home. I'm going to keep walking. Why? Then what's going to happen? Those kinds of elements make story, and it keeps people turning the pages. So I've had people come back and tell me about Born Blind, say, I stayed up to 2:00 in the morning because I just couldn't finish once after I had to find out what's going to happen in the next that happens because of Scoop.

[00:18:06].150] - Chris
That's so good. That's why I love listening to you, Frank. You make me just want to go write.

[00:18:12].210] - Gena
I know. As you're talking, I'm thinking about a scene that I have written, and I'm thinking, I wasn't sure how to end that scene. And as you're talking, I'm like, I know how to end that scene. Like, now I know there's something else that I've got to do to make it hold the attention, because I have the tendency to be too kind to my characters. I'm writing my novel, and I have a tendency to be too kind. And so my first path, everybody is happy, and I have to take several passes before I finally add enough angst to the left trouble.

[00:18:51].810] - Frank
Yes. Well, tension drives story, and it's not these explosions that drive story. It's the tension that drives story. And what does the tension come from? It comes from objective and obstacle, because I woke up so bad, but I'm facing an obstacle, and that creates this feeling of tension constantly. Then, of course, when you have more than one point of view character, then you can work different characters because now you have conflict. Now you have this person with tension up against this person with tension because they both have goals, and sometimes they support each other and sometimes they don't. And that gives you a depth of story.

[00:19:45].870] - Chris
Now, before we recorded this podcast, I sent you a quote that I heard you say once that I've written down, and I still have. It is. You said, in captivating stories, you must fail your way to success. And that's exactly what you're talking about, isn't it?

[00:19:59].410] - Frank
It absolutely is. I didn't think that one up. I just heard it and I realized it was true. Yeah, Steven Change is teaching at WriterCon, and I heard it from him.

[00:20:11].790] - Chris
Okay. Yeah, he's a great teacher, too.

[00:20:15].240] - Frank
He has a master's degree in storytelling. And so yes, he's a master storytelling. His novels are wonderful. Why? Because they have Scoop.

[00:20:24].870] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:20:25].560] - Frank
Everything showing a change. Robert McKee says, a scene that doesn't have any change has no right to exist, because without change, the story isn't advanced. And if the story isn't advanced, you cut out the ceiling.

[00:20:41].970] - Chris
It really challenges me because when you first hear you talk about scoop, I think of it in terms of the whole book. Right. The book has to have each of these elements, the situation, a character objective, obstacle, plight.

[00:20:54].710] - Frank
Right.

[00:20:54].970] - Chris
But as you talk, I realized, no, you're saying, yes, the whole book, but then also each chapter, but then also each scene in each chapter.

[00:21:07].410] - Frank
Everything has to have a purpose. If it doesn't have a purpose, it doesn't belong in the book. Because go ahead.

[00:21:16].840] - Gena
I was going to say but that's a nice kind of for someone who's fairly systematic, that's kind of a nice checklist that you can say and you can kind of think in your mind, okay, let me look at what I've just written. Do I have a strong character? Do I have what was your C, character obstacle, objective? I've got those backwards and swipe, but I can sit there and go, okay, is that letter of the acronym, is it strong enough? Like, is that enough? Or do I need to up the ante a little bit?

[00:21:55].890] - Frank
Yeah. Now, in terms of failing your way to success, what readers want is this sense of purpose. At the beginning, you got a character who wants something, so there's this sense of purpose. We know we're going somewhere, so then the details that we include are just the things that are important to what the character wants that helps keep it satisfying. But the story is no good if it's predictable. So the outcome needs to be something that's unexpected, and yet when it happens, it makes perfect sense.

[00:22:35].680] - Chris
Yeah, I see that coming.

[00:22:38].950] - Frank
But wow, now I know more about this character. Yeah. This is the satisfaction that readers get. They want to guess the outcome. But have you ever watched the movie and you knew how it was going to end?

[00:22:54].870] - Chris
Too many times.

[00:22:57].670] - Frank
Did I? I had it already figured out. The ones that have all the twists and turns, High Crimes has a number of movies, has a bunch of different twists and turns, and you don't expect things to happen the way they happen, but they make perfect sense when they do. Yeah. And that's the constant goal. I think sometimes we just get too hung up with our outlines. If we take this simpler approach with Scoop, I think we free ourselves up for some more creative thinking so that we can more easily adopt these twists and turns that we didn't see coming. But they fit. 

[00:23:41].410] - Chris
They work really good. Frank, you're going to have me thinking now for the whole next week until we do the next podcast, probably am I including scoop and everything that we.

[00:23:49].760] - Frank
Could talk about this in Oklahoma City in a couple of weeks?

[00:23:52].190] - Chris
We will do that. We will absolutely do that. Well, Frank, thank you so much for joining us again today. Every time we've talked to you, every time we talk to you, it's always a rich talk. If you want to get connected with Frank, you can find him at frankball.org and you can even email him. Frank@frankball.org. He loves to help writers, loves to point you in the right direction, and he's got some great material online too, that I just know you'll want to check out. Great blog too.

[00:24:22].230] - Gena
Definitely. And if you love this podcast, we hope that you will please rate, review, subscribe, and share it with your friends. We want to get the word out. We want to help as many writers as we can to succeed in whatever genre they're writing for, whatever you're writing for. So please check that out. And also be sure to check out Writing Moments. That's our online writers group, and we'd love to have you join us there as well, where we combined teaching with just collaborative or just writing together. It's not really collaborative. We're writing side by side, but we're writing together and just encouraging one another in that. So be sure to check that out. Writingmoments.com until next week.

[00:25:06].540] - Chris
We thank you, Frank, for being here. We thank everyone for the time.

[00:25:10].410] - Frank
I love it.

[00:25:11].180] - Chris
Yeah, absolutely. And we thank you all for listening. And until next time, remember, together we have Writing Momentum. Bye bye.