Collaborating Tips – Writing with Co-Authors, Editors and Agents

Writing isn’t a solo venture…especially if you’re co-authoring a book, writing a screenplay, working with an editor, or working with an agent. In this episode, Chris, Gena, and friend-of-the-show Rene Gutteridge share their favorite collaborating tips when working with others on your manuscript.

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EpiSode 45 Transcription:

[00:00:13].860] - Gena
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the writing Momentum podcast. I'm Gena Maselli, and I'm here with my husband, Christopher Maselli and our good friend Rene Gutteridge. And today we're talking about collaboration. So we're going to dive into this today, just talking about what does it mean and how do we collaborate when there are lots of making the analogy, lots of chefs in the kitchen. How do you make sure a project comes together in a way that is beneficial for everybody?

[00:00:47].060] - Chris
I thought writing was completely a solo venture, something you did alone. Is that not right?

[00:00:52].990] - Gena
It can be.

[00:00:54].070] - Chris
It can be.

[00:00:55].330] - Rene
You can find yourself working alone real easy.

[00:00:58].990] - Chris
Okay, so when is it not, though? When is writing something that you're collaborating with others? In what situations does that happen?

[00:01:07].390] - Rene
Go ahead.

[00:01:08].410] - Gena
I was just going to say right off the bat, as a freelance writer, a lot of what I do is collaborative. A lot of what I do where I am collaborating with the client on what the client needs, what the client.

[00:01:21].310] - Rene
Wants, and getting them to what they.

[00:01:24].480] - Gena
Want doesn't always mean it can mean a process of changing their initial direction or making some fine tuning that and it's a back and forth. Working with clients, with editors, that kind of thing. So that's when you talk about that and then we can get into coauthoring. I've done that on some nonfiction books as well. Rene, when do you collaborate? Because I think you do quite a bit, too.

[00:01:53].190] - Rene
I would say the collaboration for me started as soon as I got into professional writing. I didn't always coauthor. It was actually many books in before I coauthored a book, which actually that's its own story, and it's not quite what it seems. But working for a publisher you're working for a publisher, their name is off the spine. Right. I think people come in thinking, thank you for publishing my work. And it's not quite like that. It's you're working with a company to put out a product, and your job is to deliver the art in the best possible way. Their job is to develop a product that will sell. Those two things come together in the middle, and we work together to make it the best that it can be for both parties. So that's very collaborative, and it takes a lot of work, a lot of maturity, and a lot of understanding how the business works in order to be a good collaborator.

[00:02:56].940] - Chris
Yeah, I guess it depends on how much you have ownership in the item to how much you take ownership yourself versus just completely let the other person have it. For instance, if I collaborate with someone on Ghostwriting, right. I'm working on their book for them even sometimes when I'm formatting people's books in that one of the first things I say to them is, ultimately this is your book, right? My name is not on it, yours is. And so while I'll be honest with you, I always will yield to what you want because I want you to be happy with your final product because you're going to have to live with this for the rest of your life, where my job on it is pretty much done once I finish. And so the collaboration there is very much a I'm here to help you, but I'm not going to give you any pushback on there. Not a whole lot.

[00:03:48].540] - Gena
I think the pushback in that respect is just helping them get to the product that they want, maybe, and maybe hopefully opening their eyes if their path is not the best one. And there's definitely those times where I know, Chris, you've worked with clients I've worked with clients where they had an idea of how they wanted it. And once you've opened their eyes to, if we restructure your book, like, this is what happens. And there are times, hopefully, when they get on board with that and they can really value what a professional writer is bringing to the table. And then there's times when they just want it their way and they have the way that they tell their story or they share their knowledge. And like you said, as ghost writers and freelancers, we have to yield to that and just let them realize that it is ultimately their book.

[00:04:47].010] - Chris
But then there are times when your name is on the book. Right. Gena, you've done a book with someone else and your name was on it. Rene, I know you've done screenwriting and books with your name on it along with someone else. How do you each handle that?

[00:05:00].880] - Gena
I had a very good experience with my co author because she and I have a very similar style of writing, which I was really thankful for because when we got to the end and everything was melded together, I almost couldn't tell which part I had written and which part she had written. That's how close we are on our style. So that actually was a really beautiful collaboration. I can definitely imagine that there would be times and the only thing I would say about collaborating with someone is just when it is your own original work is I would just be careful about that. Make sure that somebody that your styles match, that your work styles match. Make sure that your vision for the project matches so that it doesn't become contentious. What would you say, Rene?

[00:05:57].870] - Rene
I have great respect for ghostwriting. I don't do a lot of it. And when I do enter into a project, I'm like, basically like, I'm in charge only because I don't have the skills of a true ghost writer will take material that somebody has written and form it myself. But I won't enter into a co writing position in a book. Now, screenwriting is different, but for me, I don't have the skill set to write with somebody. Now you'll see my name with other people on the cover for instance, the books that I did with Cheryl McKay. And people think Cheryl and I were sitting side by side and just, oh, this is so fun. This is not how that happened at all. I took material Cheryl had and I formed into a novel and used her screenplay to adapt. So I'm more as an adaptation author, I think. Then I am like a cowriter. Like, you hear people literally cowriting together their scenes. I just don't have the skill set to do it. I'm too dogged in my own vision, really, I think, to be good at it. But what I am good at is taking material and saying to the person who's providing the material, trust me, I'm going to work on this, and then I'm going to give you a completed book, and then I'm going to hear you.

[00:07:40].290] - Rene
That's how my collaborative skill set works, I guess. That doesn't work for all ghostwriting projects. What Chris and Gina have are extremely high level ghostwriting skills. I think that function well in true ghostwriting situations. So I would never call myself a ghostwriter, even though I technically, I guess, do it, but not in the way that Chris and Gina do it professionally. Just because I have such a background in solo writing that I just never developed that skill to work in a co writing situation, if that makes sense.

[00:08:27].240] - Chris
But what about screenwriting? Don't you?

[00:08:28].870] - Gena
Yeah, that was my question.

[00:08:30].030] - Chris
I'm sorry.

[00:08:30].730] - Rene
Totally different thing. Screenwriting just throws all that out the window. But going into screenwriting, it's a totally different situation than book writing. Not only am I maybe cowriting like I do for skit guys, with skit guys and other projects, but so I have a literal co writerco-writer, and we literally are going back and forth. I'm writing a scene, they're writing a scene that's going back and forth. That's the very beginning stages of who's going to have input into the script. Like it will have input and input and put all the way up the ladder all the way to the day of filming. People are going to have their hands on the script and creative input. You know that as a screenwriter going in. So you can only do your very best to provide a baseline script that you think can get it up the ladder all the way to the day of filming and hope that by the time it gets there, it's still making sense. And the people that have had creative input have good skills to keep that momentum going.

[00:09:40].500] - Gena
What happens? How do you deal with Chris, you as well, both of you, how do you deal when you get that pushback, when you get the projects that you're collaborating on and you get pushback from clients or from editors. Rene, you've talked about screenwriting and you've said you just go into it knowing this is going to be melding of everybody's talents and giftings coming together. What happens when you're dealing in a collaborative environment with an editor or with a client and they push back and they don't like it?

[00:10:15].730] - Rene
I think you both would agree there's also a skill set in how to deal with pushback. And when you first begin in the journey, you're just terrible at it unless you've had a whole bunch of experience dealing with it in some other job. The more I've done it, the better that I get at it. One of the main skills I've developed is using the phrase, it's not a hill to die on. I have my hills to die on. I know typically what they are. If it's not one of those hills, I may try to argue my case, but I'm going to save my big pushbacks for something that I really feel very strongly about. If you're pushing back on everything or you're not taking any of the suggestions, then you begin to come across as a person who's not easy to work with. And when you get that reputation, you might win all your arguments, but the number of contracts you're getting may begin to dwindle because you can't be right on everything. You've got to have an open mind to understand that people are looking from the outside in and can see things you can't see.

[00:11:35].890] - Rene
So you want to have a very balanced perspective. You don't want to fold on everything either. Right.

[00:11:41].970] 


[00:11:42].210] - Rene
You don't want to just be like.

[00:11:43].260] - Rene
I want another job.

[00:11:44].560] - Rene
So whenever you say, Fine, and I don't have any backbone in this, you don't want to be that person either, because then you're going to get a project that is just all messed up because you, as the artist, know it better than anybody. So you've got to be able to understand your own project better than anybody and know when something is being presented that needs to change. You've got to understand pretty quickly whether that has a detrimental effect or whether that change will be okay and make it better.

[00:12:19].090] - Chris
Yeah, you need to pick your battles, for sure. And I found that a lot of the clients that I work with are very thankful when I'm honest with them and give them my suggestions. But I really try to make sure I'm not coming across as though I'm trying to tell them how to write their book, but rather that I'm trying to show them how what they've already written can be even stronger. Right. And just sometimes by rephrasing things to show them how it benefits them and their audience. The writers can be very open to that, and if they're teachable people a lot of times it can be a very good experience, they'll just be so thankful that you share this information with them, that kind of thing. Especially if it's something that can really change the course of how a chapter is going or a book goes. And then I've certainly worked with people that are very much they do not want to change anything. It's the way they wrote it, and they think that's right. And so that's where I know that, okay, I need to back down a little bit, and if it's their project, then okay, I'll do my best to work around the way they want it to be, and then I just feel good as long as I know I've been honest with them.

[00:13:28].920] - Chris
Now that I would feel differently if my name were on the book, if it were my project. When I've worked with editors, they taught me that way of responding, because many times the way editors have approached me on my books is they've said, hey, we think you need to change this or that, but ultimately it's your book, they'll say, and I've been thankful for that. And it's almost always I go with what they want to do because I realize that what they're sharing does make the book stronger, and sometimes that's not the case. And when it's not, I will say, no, I'm not going to do that. But more than more often than not, I find that I want to do that.

[00:14:06].550] - Rene
Yeah, I want to add to that, Chris, that I think one of the things that is such a joy is to work with a skilled editor. There is nothing like getting eight pages of notes from somebody who you realize knows your book better than you do, that they see, like, this metaphor potential that you were like, I didn't even see that. And they're like, if you do this and this, then you become this brilliant brain and just like, man, thank you for making me look way better than I am. But it's really fun, actually, to work with somebody who has studied your project so carefully that they're bringing notes that you realize are going to make your book, like, outstanding. And your book was good when you turned it in, or you wouldn't have turned it in. But working with a great editor and not only that, a really great editor, and I've worked with a few, and it's such a prize, they won't even tell you what to do. They just are able to give you notes in such a way that you.

[00:15:23].210] - Rene
I don't know, it's some sort of.

[00:15:24].970] - Rene
Magic, but suddenly you think it's your idea that you came up with, and somehow they prompted you, and you realize you've solved this problem due to their notes. And probably in their head, they already knew what it was. But they are so great and how they give you the notes that you actually think it was your idea. If you ever get to work with a highly skilled editor on any of your projects, it's such a gift. And I'm thankful I've been made such a better writer for being able to work with editors.

[00:15:59].890] - Gena
I think that's true, too. Working with editors, even in I've worked with specifically, I think some of the people who have made me such a better writer have been editors, and I don't even know that they know the impact that they had on my writing. But when I watched them, the first editor that I ever worked with, when I worked with her and I saw her notes and it was like this, it was just so illuminating. It was so illuminating to work with somebody who was just such a master at her craft. And yeah, she probably doesn't even realize it, because at the time I was actually working as a project manager, I was an editor, and I was doing some basic writing, but I had not crossed over into doing freelance writing, but just working with this higher skilled editor. It was remarkable to see just on a project level her take the projects to such a higher level, just overall. So, yeah, I definitely think what you're saying, and that is a special gift. Yeah, definitely.

[00:17:13].690] - Rene
I think as we wrap up, one of the things that I want to circle back on with what Chris said is if you can learn to be gracious and encouraging and be sure to point out everything that's going right when you're collaborating, whether you're in an editor functioning as an editor or collaborator, co writers, ghost writers, your role is that you're working with somebody else in an artistic form. The more gracious, encouraging, positive that you can be, even as you're pushing back, the better the experience is going to be for everybody. And it actually can be quite fun, even in the middle of pushbacks when you're being challenged creatively by somebody who gets how to do it graciously and in a fun way, there's actually a lot of magic that happens.

[00:18:06].330] - Chris
But I became a writer because I didn't want to have people skills.

[00:18:09].630] - Rene
We care about people forever.

[00:18:14].360] - Gena
True.

[00:18:16].540] - Chris
All right, Gena, you're wrapping us up.

[00:18:19].010] - Gena
Sure. Thank you so much for joining us on this Writing Momentum podcast. Please rate, review, subscribe, and share this podcast with your friends. We'd love to get the word out and just help other writers sharpen their skills and learn about publishing, about marketing, about branding themselves and building their author platform. And until next time, may we all have Writing Momentum. Bye. Bye.